skzbrust ([info]skzbrust) wrote,
@ 2006-07-29 00:40:00
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Entry tags:work

How I work, part 2
In a previous discussion, lollardfish said the following:

But my question about systems I am still curious about. Whether SKZB tries to make systems that work, or just makes up stuff that sounds cool and handwaves the details.

There are many answers. There is how I wish I worked. There is how I believe I work. There is how I want you to think I work. There is how I actually work (which will vary from book to book, and system to system).

I think I will answer "How I want you to think I work" because that sounds like the most fun and will make me appear more impressive than the others.

My goal when creating systems -- weather a magic system, a system of civil engineering, a social system, an economic system, or a political system -- is to do three things: 1) Encourage the reader to buy into it sufficiently that it won't detract from his enjoyment of the story, B) provide a nice backdrop against which the story can take place, and, iii) insofar as possible without messing up 1) or B), create a vehicle to explore such systems in our world, or the attitude toward such systems, or (in the case of magic especially) the thing for which the system is a metaphor.

I think pretty much every writer knows how to achieve the first of these: you do it through feel. In the case of a magic system, through sensuousness: the reader will buy into it because he can smell the incense, or see the look on the wizard's face, or hear the crackle of the lightning, or feel the euphoria or exhaustion the working produces. Sometimes the reader will buy into it because it is poetically appropriate--it is just right that this happens right now. Gandalf driving away the Nazgul in The Return of the King is the classic case. In creating other sorts of systems, one does it by carefully introducing the appropriately irrational: the exact right kind of, "it makes no sense that they did it that way" reaction will immediately produce a, "but that's just the sort of thing they do," and it will become real. At least, that is how I react, and I have no choice but to assume the reader will react the same way. A misfire on this sort of detail will have the opposite effect: pulling the reader out of the story, and even ruining his suspension of disbelief.

It seems to work best for me, by the way, when I know why a certain irrationality is there, even if I never tell the reader. That is, when I mention certain irrationalities in the layout of Adrilankha, I have in my head why the city developed as it did. I might come up with these before or after the moment I actually write the detail. I will most likely forget the explanation later. But at some point, I want to have it. And many of these details seem to introduce themselves spontaneously during the writing process. When that happens, I always feel that this is a healthy sign; but I might be kidding myself.

The understanding of real systems becomes important for the second goal--for providing the backdrop. In order to make the story flow (and, to be honest, to provide little bits of business that often help get me unstuck), there is nothing like having a clear understanding of how a system truly works. As a sop to those of you who hate the idea of a quasi-Marxist really understanding social and political systems, I'll say that the understanding the writer has can be completely wrong, so long as it is sufficiently internalized that he can flow with it automatically. Ideally, this should play back into the first goal as well: when the writer understands and believes in the system he has created, this will communicate itself to the reader and (I hope) keep him from being pulled out of the story the way the economic systems in cyberpunk novels always pull me out, with a muttered, "bullshit."

So, having gotten that far (introducing appropriate irrationalities, sensuous detail, and having the background of understanding similar systems in the real world), the hope is that the last goal will take care of itself. Sometimes it does, at least to my satisfaction. Brokedown Palace worked well that way, for me; and I'm rather pleased with Orca in the same regard.

Okay, now that I've explained all of this, does it bear any relationship to how I actually work? Ummm...I think so. But, even if it doesn't, I think I've accomplished 1) by giving you the feel of my thought process, B) by creating a self-consistent explanation that is similar to the ways many writers approach many questions, and iii) by adding on this last paragraph, to make the whole thing recursive.




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[info]zizban
2006-07-29 12:45 pm UTC (link)
I also like one of your sayings that Lawrence Watt-Evans has posted under his Laws of Fantasy: "Don't tell how something works; show how it works."

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[info]ilcylic
2006-07-29 03:05 pm UTC (link)
To iterate is Human, to recurse, Divine.

Anyway, on to the main thread of what I was going to say.

As a sop to those of you who hate the idea of a quasi-Marxist really understanding social and political systems, I'll say that the understanding the writer has can be completely wrong, so long as it is sufficiently internalized that he can flow with it automatically.

I wouldn't go so far as to say "hate", but I can tell you that it does have an effective... effect as far as the story goes. When Kelly is going on about where power comes from and who has it and who doesn't, knowing your background and what he's probably therefore trying to get at, I feel a humorously sympathetic twinge for the Empire. "This guy is completely off his rocker."

{discourse on the transition from feudalism to marxism and the lack of military power of the Teckla deleted due to early morning incoherency}

This is funny because I usually reserve my positive feelings for the Empire for the Romantic novels; in the Vlad books I'm of course as anti-Empire as Vlad is. (Which isn't as anti-Empire as he thought he was, as we've all discovered.)

This is all a roundabout way of delivering a backhanded compliment; when you can make a radical free-market anarchist sympathetic to any of those parties, you've done a good job of writing.

-Ogre

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[info]pyrona
2006-07-29 03:18 pm UTC (link)
To iterate is Human, to recurse, Divine.

You, sir, just made my whole day ^_^

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[info]pyrona
2006-07-29 03:16 pm UTC (link)
I've never quite put my finger on it, but your comment about sci-fi and bullshit got me thinking.

Is the reason that I tend to lean towards fantasy more than hard sci-fi because fantasy requires less suspension of disbelief on my part? Hmmm... It's not something I usually ponder directly when I'm reading a book. Either I tear through a text and happily consume it, or I dither through and don't enjoy it as much. Granted, I know that there are many factors (trifling matters like good characterizations, likability of the characters, engaging storylines...) but when all those are accounted for in a book and its still not quite as delicious as I think it ought to be, maybe that's a direction I ought to look in.

That train of thought got quite off from where it started - does sci-fi require more suspension of disbelief? I think it might. Fantasy settings are frequently more remeniscent of the past, so there's an easy out for both author and reader to think, "Oh well surely it was like that SOMEtime in the past," where sci-fi generally has the harder job of describing the future - then convinging us subtley that it could some day be that way.

Right, stopping before this ramble gets out of hand, I shouldn't be able to muse this early in the morning.

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[info]skzbrust
2006-07-29 03:30 pm UTC (link)
Pyrona? Are you the Pyrona who has been steadfastly ignoring my efforts to flirt on OKCupid, or someone different?

(Another character trait very helpful in a writer is to have absolutely no qualms about publically embarassing one's self.)

To answer your question, I think the answer is yes, because sf is closer to reality. I n other words, Flatland is so far from reality that one can happily traipse through it without giving it a thought. In Rendezvous With Rama, it is so close to what could happen that any errors (or, let us say, disagreements with the author) stand out markedly. The requirement for more suspension of disbelief when reading sf is, I suspect, one reason some sf readers are contemptuous of fantasy: reading fantasy doesn't take any *work*. At least, not that kind of work.

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[info]pyrona
2006-07-29 03:48 pm UTC (link)
Bah, ignoring! I practically giddy myself silly whenever I get a message from you! Now if only an astounding propensity for embarassing oneself publicly were -all- it took to be a great writer, I could quit my day job. Tell me, does that work for artists, too?

reading fantasy doesn't take any *work*

I started to protest that but got about to the point of having my mouth hanging open and my finger up in the air when I decided that I agree. Well. Fantasy books that really make you work for it are few and far between - and with all the fluff fantasy I've been reading lately I'n kind of longing for something a little more engaging. The only books I've been really impressed by the last couple of months (China Mieville's Perdido Street Station and The Scar - absolutely excellent) were books that made me strive a bit for understanding and acceptance... though maybe it's just because I'm running low on authors to try out. Luckily a whole slew of books from my favorite-est-est people are coming out (how do you authors always manage to stack up your releases like that, so I have nothing on month and then 4 new hardbacks to procure the next?) so maybe my dry spell will soon end.

What did I just say about rambling in the morning?

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[info]skzbrust
2006-07-29 04:08 pm UTC (link)
Now if only an astounding propensity for embarassing oneself publicly were -all- it took to be a great writer, I could quit my day job. Tell me, does that work for artists, too?

Just for the hell of it I'm going to give you a serious answer. For any sort of artist, being willing to make a fool of himeself in public is a two-edged sword. On the one hand, it permits him to get his work out there--to keep trying, which tends to encourage growth. On the other hand, the fear of embarassing one's self is one of the things that drives many artists to get good.

My friend Adam (Cats Laughing, Boiled in Lead, &c) had a horrible, almost debilitating fear that he'd get up in public and suck. We were housemates during the time leading up to the first ever Cats Laughing gig, and I was able to watch how that fear transformed itself into a drive for perfection.

The good news is, we don't really get to choose how comfortable we are making fools of ourselves, so we just try to press home whichever advantage nature has given us and make the most of it.

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[info]thedragonweaver
2006-07-29 07:56 pm UTC (link)
I think a large part of the problem of many science fiction writers (in terms of engaging their audience) is that they miss the essential thing about science fiction, or indeed, about any kind of fiction.

Fiction is writing about today through the lens of the story.

Science fiction is writing about today through the lens of tomorrow. Fantasy is writing about today through the lens of magic, or through an alternate reality. Same thing goes for horror, or for "literature", or whatever.

Think about it. The books that most people read are ones that people can identify with. The reader understands a character, and can sympathize with them, or hate them, or fall in love with them, or whatever. You don't see too many stories about truly alien beings in science fiction— they're all human under the skin, or otherwise sympathetic... or if they are not, they are set up in opposition to human-like characters. (C.J. Cherryh's knn are a good example.)

The books loved by a few, are often read because the common denominator is the beauty of the language. In those cases, the reader is identifying with the writer rather than his characters.

Anyway, it's my hypothesis. If you like to read fantasy better than science ficiton, it's because fantasy tends to have well-developed characters, and SOME science ficiton fails on that level. (Some fantasy does, too— have you read much fantasy from the early 80s? A lot of it reads like wood.*)

*In my opinion, fantasy writing has matured remarkably in the last two decades. I think that's why the genre has grown so much.

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[info]skzbrust
2006-07-30 05:46 am UTC (link)
>I think a large part of the problem of many science fiction writers (in terms of engaging >their audience) is that they miss the essential thing about science fiction, or indeed, >about any kind of fiction.

>Fiction is writing about today through the lens of the story.

Well,I most emphatically agree with your second sentence. My only question is about your first. That is, it is obvious that anyone writing about today is writing about today--this is even (especially?) true of writing history. But is it really important that the writer understand that? I mean, it's going to happen anyway, whether he wants it to or not. And perhaps being consciouis of it gives him a few extra things to play with it. But I'm not convinced that his awareness of it really matters all that much.

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[info]thedragonweaver
2006-07-30 06:17 pm UTC (link)
Well, I guess it's only important when they're failing at it. I've read more than a few things where the person is so interested in creating an "other" that they forget to tie it to the common concepts that we share.

Or, in other words, they get so caught up in making their work different that they forget the idea of, "Hey, I've got something really cool to tell you."

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[info]skzbrust
2006-07-30 06:58 pm UTC (link)
Okay, that makes sense.

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[info]graydown
2006-07-29 04:23 pm UTC (link)
Would you mind going into more detail about economic systems in cyberpunk? I always like watching people poke holes in my favorite genres.

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[info]skzbrust
2006-07-29 05:24 pm UTC (link)
mmm...not sure I can go into much detail. Every time I've read a cyberpunk novel (_Web of Angels_ by Ford being an emphatic exception) I had the impression that it took take place in a world where food grows in grocery stores.

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[info]graydown
2006-07-29 05:53 pm UTC (link)
I haven't heard of that one. I'll have to go look it up. I've gotten the impression from Gibson at least that most of the people in his books live on stuff grown in algae vats, except for the exceptionally rich. I hadn't actually given it much thought.

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SF Systems
[info]famishus
2006-08-02 01:18 am UTC (link)
Have you read either Snow Crash or The Diamond Age by Neal Stephenson? Snow Crash is more cyberpunk-ish, but both contain well-realized societies.

I think the best system I've ever read in sf is in David Brin's Earth. Written in the 80s, it was set a mere 50 years in the future. As he states in his author's note, that's far enough out to have some interesting developments, but is close enough so as to limit the amount of change the reader should have to accept.

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[info]elynne
2006-07-29 05:35 pm UTC (link)
Have you read any of China Mieville's writings? I've only read one (so far), Iron Council, and the thing that impressed me deeply was the amazingly rich background of the world which is only hinted at in the story. It gives a story depth, not just a background, but an internal context. It's also one of the reasons I adore the Book of the New Sun series by Gene Wolfe. I recommended that series to someone who later complained that he'd stopped reading halfway through the first book because "there's all this background stuff I want to know, and he never actually gets to explaining any of it!" But that's what makes his writing great, rather than "just" fun or entertaining.

I've noticed the backgrounds in your books, too. I've had arguments with friends over how things work in the Dragaeran empire - magic, gods, politics, economics. The fact that we can have arguments about such things, and cite references in your books to support both sides, tells me that you've put a lot of thought into how they work.

(it took me a while, but I finally spotted both sides of the story Vlad is told in Teckla.)

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[info]pyrona
2006-07-29 08:51 pm UTC (link)
And China Mieville makes a second appearance in this thread - Amaze! Have you read any of his other books? Iron Council is actually my least favorite of the three I've read, I just felt like it wasn't nearly as rich as Perdido Street Station or the Scar. You should give those two a read as well ^_^

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[info]elynne
2006-07-29 10:43 pm UTC (link)
There were some things about the story that made me go "nnnrrrrghhh" and grit my teeth, for vague reasons that probably have to do with areas where his politics are intrinsically different from mine. It's like... I love his world-crafting, I have deep respect for his story-telling, and - I think his characterizations could... use more work.

I do own Perdito Street Station; it's sitting on the bookshelf right next to me, in fact, giving me this beady, expectant look. It's right under my recently-acquired copy of The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars, which is giving me a similiar look. It's a bit worrying.

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[info]thedragonweaver
2006-07-30 06:18 pm UTC (link)
Oh, don't worry about The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars. it's a lot more friendly than you might think.

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[info]rathgar
2006-07-29 11:15 pm UTC (link)
Mieville can certainly write, but he was so gratuitously gross in perdido station that he's scared me off completely. I guess our definitions of what constitutes cool stuff don't mesh.

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[info]hlglne
2006-07-29 05:42 pm UTC (link)
China Mieville rocks. That is all.

I'm not worthy to post more on topic, not yet anyway.

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Easy reading...
[info]gamebofh
2006-07-29 09:33 pm UTC (link)
I think this could be a topic all of its own. Everyone who is here is clearly an avid reader, and I would suspect is far above the norm in numbers of books read as well as breadth. Personally, when I read a book, I don't actually really read it so much as watch a movie in my head as the words flow by. (I have no idea how common or uncommon this is. I suspect it's fairly common in this group). I can work through a lot of books, but the ones that seem to FLY by are the ones I enjoy the best. So far, the two authors most capable of doing that are you and Robert Parker. The books are "light" in that they contain enough detail to allow me to see the scene, without having so much detail that I feel compelled to start ignoring some of it. Back to the movie concept, imagine a director who shows the same scene of a (because we are in fantasy) of a castle, but then starts zooming in and panning back and forth on the blocks of stone, moss, moat, etc... For me the exception to this is Neal Stephenson. I enjoy his detailed descriptions of inane things far too much.

If I want to read hard slow books, I'd heartily recommend "Exploring Expect", but the context is slightly different. :)

Only China Mieville I've read is King Rat. I did a short review, just on, well, I guess what is my blog. It was pretty good, but I haven't ever re-read it.

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[info]chaos_sleeps
2006-07-30 06:24 am UTC (link)
the way the economic systems in cyberpunk novels always pull me out, with a muttered, "bullshit."

You, too? Glad it's not just me.

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Sympathetic bad guys
[info]howardbrazee
2006-07-31 01:02 pm UTC (link)
In fiction, as in real life, it is easy to caricature the bad guys. In real life this is dangerous, as when we can't see the Hitler that persuaded millions to love him, we are subject to his type of danger recurring.

In fiction, this can work some when the bad guy remains unseen in Mordor, but in that case, he's not a character, but more of a MacGuffin, allowing the plot to advance.

I like my bad guys to be real. Most bad guys think they're good guys. And corruption happens a little bit at a time. I didn't believe the good guys turned murderous in movies like _The Rock_. To corrupt a cop, start off by paying him to look away while you punish a bad guy.

I was thinking - you know what character is very common in real life, but not so common in fiction? On NPR's American Life, there was a guy who kept whining about when some guys threw him into a lake decades before - one guy said it was because he was an ass. Yeah, I could see that, but I also felt sorry for him - he wanted to be a regular guy, but doesn't have the ability to be other than an ass. But this guy is mostly useful for comic color.

Having bad guys who believe they're right - or who *know* they're right is more important.

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[info]analexbeetlebum
2006-08-01 04:20 pm UTC (link)
I thoroughly enjoy a 'good guy' who begins his journey as straitlaced as can be, but who dances ever closer to the darkness as the story progresses. I'm mainly thinking of Inquisitor Eisenhorn from Dan Abnett's Eisenhorn trilogy in the Warhammer 40k universe.

I find the 40k universe interesting, because (to return to some earlier comments) I too mostly prefer fantasy to sci-fi, and Warhammer 40k is pretty sci-fi. I think what it is with this particular setting is that it is so far flung into the future that it isn't closely relatable to real life anymore. I haven't read that many books set in the universe, but that's the impression I've gotten from what I've read so far. And Dan Abnett's writing is just delicious. I read Horus Rising, the first book chronicling the Horus Heresy, within two days.

I think maybe I've gotten a bit off topic, but that's not unusual for me.

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[info]rathgar
2006-08-02 07:35 pm UTC (link)
Six more days until Dzur comes out. I can practically taste the roast kethna!

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