skzbrust ([info]skzbrust) wrote,
@ 2006-08-08 13:36:00
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Food and books
I spent a delightful morning hanging out with Neil Gaiman, and, as usual, we talked about Stuff. If the following makes you go, "Splendid! Brilliant! Insightful!" then Neil gets the credit, because it was his metaphor. On the other hand, if it makes you go, "Lame! Stupid! Strained!" then blame me, because I stretched it to the breaking point.

Books can be broken down into four classes: popcorn, steak, caviar, and celery.

Popcorn is pretty obvious. Anyone here enjoy The Destroyer novels by Sapir and Murphy as much as me? gobble gobble gobble Steak is the stuff you can bite into, chew, swallow, and gain sustenance from. Some of us use spices on our steak, or do interesting things with it by stir-frying it, adding ginger and various vegetables, and so on. In my case, paprika. But at the end of the day, it is steak. Niel writes particularly good steak--range fed, the spicing is different every time, always delectable, and some of it obviously comes from places where cattle are not indigenous, making you go, "Wow. How did they ever think of doing that?" as you go for the next bite.

Gene Wolfe and John M. "Mike" Ford write caviar. It is a lot of work to get to. You have to open the can, you have to make sure the refrigeration is exactly perfect. You have to have the right atmosphere, and you have to approach it with the proper reverence if you're going to get anything out of the experience. But if you do, my god, is it worth it!

Celery is that stuff you have to chew and chew and chew and, by the time you're done, you've gotten even less nutritional value from than the popcorn. I won't name any names.

Some turn up their noses at popcorn. Well, that's okay. Just don't bring 'em to a ball game. Most of us like steak, in one form or another. Some object to caviar because they have just never got into the glories of eating--into food that is worth the work. For them, the payoff just isn't there.

The interesting thing, to me, is that there really are people out there who like the celery because it is so hard to chew, and the fact that there's nothing of substance there doesn't bother them.

Okay, so, probably not as deep as I'm making it sound. But fun to think about.

That Which May Become A Book has 15 pages. And no plot. We'll see.



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[info]mnemex
2006-08-08 09:10 pm UTC (link)
Hmm. Works for me, though I think some ofthe celery-eaters will argue that their celery is actually caviar. Or something.

I'm not sure how to characterize, say, the Djinn in the Nightingale's Eye, which I found to be difficult but without merit, whereas others seemed to think it worthy of an award.

...


But what percentage of TWMBAB is Good Stuff?

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[info]thegeminifactor
2006-08-08 09:19 pm UTC (link)
I like that metaphor. I like that metaphor a lot. Appropriately silly but at the same time oh so true.


And plot schmot. It'll come when it comes. Until then just have fun with it.

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all
[info]sich67
2007-01-21 05:15 pm UTC (link)
yes

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[info]_eljefe_
2006-08-08 09:28 pm UTC (link)
Popcorn is pretty obvious. Anyone here enjoy The Destroyer novels by Sapir and Murphy as much as me? gobble gobble gobble

Indeed, I have been fortunate enough to read of the glory that is Chuin, even if it is often bungled by those foolish westerners *grin*

Interesting enough, the term "popcorn" has been used for some time, especially in hip hop/r&b circles. Holds the same meaning though.

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His name
[info]grindell
2006-08-08 10:04 pm UTC (link)
His name was Remo.....

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: His name - [info]_eljefe_, 2006-08-08 10:16 pm UTC
Re: His name - [info]knappenp, 2006-08-09 12:45 pm UTC

[info]agrumer
2006-08-08 09:30 pm UTC (link)
And some people look at caviar and think it's celery.

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[info]tyreeclaiborne
2008-08-11 11:18 am UTC (link)
  I think that's the closest name for it, although in years since, I have seen it called Cowboy Caviar, which some people think morphed from Texas Caviar.

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[info]sistercoyote
2006-08-08 09:37 pm UTC (link)
Maybe not deep, but not inaccurate, either.

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[info]timprov
2006-08-08 09:38 pm UTC (link)
I'm curious how you would classify, say, The Vicomte de Bragelonne.

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[info]timprov
2006-08-08 10:00 pm UTC (link)
Also, Mike Ford is more like cheese.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]skzbrust, 2006-08-08 11:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]timprov, 2006-08-08 11:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]skzbrust, 2006-08-08 11:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]skzbrust, 2006-08-08 11:05 pm UTC

[info]tu_sense
2006-08-08 10:02 pm UTC (link)
I like my popcorn with extra cheesiness.

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[info]lightgetsin
2006-08-08 10:35 pm UTC (link)
So, what does this make vegetarians?

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[info]slitterst
2006-08-08 11:23 pm UTC (link)
Doomed to read popcorn and celery apparently.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]omaha, 2006-08-09 03:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]grahamventer, 2008-08-11 03:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]marcolanford, 2008-08-11 09:22 pm UTC
Apropos of nothing
[info]skylarker
2006-08-08 11:00 pm UTC (link)
Celergy makes a good garnish. I like it with peanutbutter.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

More seriously,
[info]skylarker
2006-08-09 04:10 am UTC (link)
If I understand you correctly, you are using Popcorn, Steak, Caviar and Celery to represent whole categories of literary fare. I think the analogy works better if you consider the categories as such rather than as represented by particular foods. i.e.: I’d distinguish them as Snack foods, Nutritious Meals and Canapés, to signify light reading, more substantial works and artful works.

I think the distinction between ‘caviar’ and ‘celery’ is one of taste rather than category. Caviar and celery can both be served as canapés, but neither represents the full range of possibilities. And using celery to represent a particular style you don’t appreciate isn’t a fair analogy. Someone who doesn’t appreciate a particular form of literature can dismiss it for lacking substance (like celery), where an aficionado of the form would liken it to the whole range of crudities with accompanying dips and sauces, or to petit fours, or fine chocolates. Someone with refined tastes in a particular school of literature will get much more from reading it than someone who doesn’t care for that sort of thing – which applies as much to caviar as to vegetables.

And a delicious and nourishing meal can be based around a goose, turkey or salmon as well as it can be based around a steak – and it can even be vegetarian.

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[info]dogofthefuture
2006-08-08 11:09 pm UTC (link)
*coughcoughJamesJoycecoughcough*

I said nothing, merely coughed.

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[info]bastlynn
2006-08-08 11:47 pm UTC (link)
Here... have a beer and some nice steak to wash it down with. ;)

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(no subject) - [info]von_krag, 2006-08-09 04:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mnemex, 2006-08-09 02:55 pm UTC

[info]ladybast
2006-08-08 11:20 pm UTC (link)
I suppose I've always figured the popcorn category to be more cotton candy-like. Fun to read, you get through it quickly, but there's no real substance.

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[info]tonyaalmstad
2008-08-11 10:22 pm UTC (link)
Cats get you through times of no dogs better than dogs through times of no cats. Cats give us cool cartoon characters Cats give us cool cartoon characters Cats give us someone to talk to Cats go "Cat-B-Lancheit's the "Cats-Meow.

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(no subject) - [info]ladybast, 2008-08-12 03:53 am UTC

[info]rian
2006-08-08 11:46 pm UTC (link)
Rex Stout: Steak or caviar? I am thinking steak, in that it is amazingly readable and anyone would love it, but it also seems like the metaphor should have an option for shad roe?

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[info]mattador
2006-08-09 12:00 am UTC (link)
Hello, just figured I would drop a note saying that I read Dzur today, and it was like a reunion with an old friend. The wordplay was especially keen, and it was great to see Vlad getting up to his old tricks, or at least, some variations on said tricks.

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[info]skzbrust
2006-08-09 12:25 am UTC (link)
I'm glad you liked it. Thanks for taking the time to say so.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]mattador, 2006-08-09 12:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jmtorres, 2006-08-09 01:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]skzbrust, 2006-08-09 02:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jmtorres, 2006-08-09 02:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bastlynn, 2006-08-09 03:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mortaine, 2006-08-09 03:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cifarelli, 2006-08-09 02:22 pm UTC
yay!
[info]oddonnelle
2006-08-09 12:06 am UTC (link)
Mr Gaiman's news feed has been giving me troubles. I've not been reading his journal bits with any regularity lately. I did read it this morning and was instantly frightened that he might have come and gone and the two of you hadn't had a chance to get together. I blame the coffee. I'm glad it had a happy ending

Amazon told me Dzur came out today. This too, made me happy. It also made me sad as I have to wait for the paperback version so it'll match my collection. Le sigh. :)

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Hah!
[info]imnobserver
2006-08-09 12:07 am UTC (link)
That's the biz sweetheart.

Merry Feast of Pig everyone!

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[info]coffeeem
2006-08-09 12:36 am UTC (link)
Ehhh...interesting, but doesn't work for me. Mostly because I see almost every work of fiction as having a certain amount of popcorn, a certain steak quotient, some celery, and some caviar. The resulting combination sounds so vile that I kind of have to seek out a different analogy.

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[info]skzbrust
2006-08-09 02:19 am UTC (link)
For me, it doesn't work to analyze the book, but it works very well to describe the feeling I have right after I've put the book down.

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[info]thedragonweaver
2006-08-09 01:35 am UTC (link)
My mom and I have used the term popcorn in describing novels for years.

It's even more fun because I read swiftly enough that in high school, our library would get in the new batch of fluff (that which gives the term "Young Adult" a bad name) and I'd polish off a book or two a day.

We had long lunches, and a mid-morning break. But still, popcorn taken to its logical extreme, and some of the books were quite hilariously bad.

One memorable one was one in a series, set in a very tame underworld with one of the protagonists as a ghost. The writers— plural— used a superfluity of exclamation points in the body text, ended every single chapter with a false cliffhanger (the Horrible Villain is coming up behind you! No, wait, we were mistaken), and never used words longer than two syllables. I finished that book out of sheer astonishment and momentum, thinking that it had to get better, no one would publish something that bad...

I was tragically, horribly wrong. I've seen better writing out of eighth graders. Hell, I wrote better crap in eighth grade, and I still have those stories around somewhere to keep me humble. (They keep me very, very humble.) Mind-numbingly awful.

Off the tangent...

I think the definition of celery needs to be expanded somewhat, to include the fact that many people read it because they're certain it's good for them. And there's always the possibility that one day your celery will come with a peanut-butter and raisin filling.

And speaking of that, what's Terry Pratchett? Chocolate?

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[info]tallykat668
2006-08-09 02:08 am UTC (link)
Exactly. Terry Pratchett = mint filled dark chocolate Ghiradelli bon-bons. To wit, decadently sweet but with a faint dark bitter tang on the outside; piquant, refreshing and utterly delightful on the inside. And to hie me out a tired, entirely overused homily, you can't eat just one!

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[info]den_down_unda
2006-08-09 03:50 am UTC (link)
I like the metaphor. And I blame both of you.

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Re: Dzur
[info]ilcylic
2006-08-09 04:44 am UTC (link)
Speaking of books and food, you've made me a happy man. Please, for the love of the gods, don't make me wait another 5 years for the next one.

Also, I cannot even begin to describe how hungry the chapter openings made me by the end of the book.

Y'know, I wish I read slower sometimes. I think that was more expensive in terms of dollars per hour of entertainment than first-run movies are. Though, I suppose I'll at least get to re-read it later.

-Ogre

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[info]spacecrab
2006-08-09 05:08 am UTC (link)
I've always thought of the Vlad books as burritos. One-burrito, two-burrito ....

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Dzur
[info]matt3x166
2006-08-09 06:59 am UTC (link)
Your newest book is a true feast as well as a delight for the palate of my mind. As an avid reader of your books for 21 years now, I must say that each book makes my love for the series grow and my respect for your abilities as a wordsmith increase.

The five year wait was well worth it. Keep up the great work.

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[info]esyla
2006-08-09 07:42 am UTC (link)
Just popped over here from [info]itsallonething to say, for the record, that I like your versions better than Will's. Especially the steak definition.

And while I'm here and I have this nice big comment box open in front of me: in the off-chance that you haven't seen this yet, it was quite amusing.

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[info]skzbrust
2006-08-09 02:41 pm UTC (link)
Red meat isn't bad for you. Fuzzy green meat is bad for you.

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[info]randomchris
2006-08-09 08:48 am UTC (link)
Okay, because nobody's said it yet, and either you're expecting somebody to say it or you really can't spell it, and I hope it's the former:

NEIL. Not Niel. NEIL. Cf neilgaiman.com.

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[info]skzbrust
2006-08-09 02:39 pm UTC (link)
It's fixed now. Thank you.

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Oh, Good. Not Just Me.
[info]matticrafts
2006-08-09 01:46 pm UTC (link)
I have long referred to lighter reading fare as "popcorn." Sooo delighted to find that it's not just me!

I like the other categories. They make sense to me.

I loathe celery books. I feel like, okay, THAT was a total waste. OTOH, I keep going because once in a while, a celery-like object will turn into something more palatable. Celery with peanut butter, if you will.

(okay. THAT was stretching the metaphor. Bad Matti. No cookie.)

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Re: Oh, Good. Not Just Me.
[info]matticrafts
2006-08-09 01:52 pm UTC (link)
...and everybody else hit those points before me. Sigh. Sorry -- my bad for not reading comments first!

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Water and Wine
[info]ryumaou
2006-08-09 02:18 pm UTC (link)
This reminded me of a Mark Twain quote:
"My books are like water; those of the great geniuses are wine. (Fortunately) everybody drinks water."

I'd just as soon read accessable "popcorn" as struggle with "caviar", though, I admit, a good "steak" always goes down well. I think more authors would do well to remember Niven's Writing Maxim: "It is a cardinal sin to bore the reader."

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