skzbrust ([info]skzbrust) wrote,
@ 2007-03-25 18:19:00
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On a more serious note
I hope I never reach the point of saying, or believing, that there is something wrong with someone merely because he doesn't undertake a serious study of philosophy.

But.

In my post last week in which I was joking about philosophy, there were a couple replies that reflected the too-common attitude that anyone who studies this stuff is wasting his time. Let me try to be as clear about this as possible: You, whoever you are, have a method for analyzing data and a set of assumptions. If you have never seriously studied the history of philosophy, and examined epistemology carefully, that means you are not aware of what yours is. In that case, odds are close to 100% that if you were confronted with your method and assumptions, you would find that you didn't agree with them; that the way you are looking at the world is one that, in fact, you would think was wrong if it were explained to you. Which leaves you in an oddly embarrassing position, doesn't it?

Does that mean I think everyone needs to study this stuff? Fuck no. What it means is that not studying philosophy is nothing to be smug about.



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[info]the_nic
2007-03-26 01:57 am UTC (link)
Hell yeah.

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[info]the_nic
2007-03-26 01:58 am UTC (link)
And by that I mean ignorance is not a valid excuse in th law, why should it be in any other area of life? I'm not going to eat your raw chicken because you haven't heard of ecoli now am I?

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(no subject) - [info]archschnitz, 2007-03-26 03:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_nic, 2007-03-27 12:07 am UTC

[info]barronblack
2007-03-26 01:57 am UTC (link)
Thank you for this post, Steven! It always seems to be the smug non-believers (in terms of the merits of philosophical study) that have the most holes in their arguments. Even the ones against studying philosophy, amusingly enough.

(Of course, a swift kick might change their minds a little more quickly...)

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[info]the_nic
2007-03-26 01:59 am UTC (link)
That is a very cool ljicon

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(no subject) - [info]skzbrust, 2007-03-26 02:49 am UTC
Tangent Response ^.^ - [info]silversaff, 2007-03-26 05:00 am UTC
Re: Tangent Response ^.^ - [info]skzbrust, 2007-03-26 07:55 am UTC

[info]rocza
2007-03-26 02:01 am UTC (link)
Heh. The "anyone who studies this stuff is wasting their time" thing exists within the field as much as out - it's just directed at specific area's of concentration. I'm the whipping gal of my department, since I dare study the applied - ohmigosh. (I get my hands dirty instead of staying with theory, eeeew.)

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[info]unixronin
2007-03-26 02:12 am UTC (link)
"Logic be damned, I've just been out back to the stable and counted them."

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(no subject) - [info]rocza, 2007-03-26 02:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]alfedenzo, 2007-03-26 03:10 am UTC

[info]schmwarf
2007-03-26 02:06 am UTC (link)
I hope this wasn't referring to my past comments because if they were interpreted in jest that certainly wasn't my intent and I apologise if they were.

When it come to in-depth views of the world, politics and society I think you're a titan. I don't necessarily agree with all you're points of view but I admire your study and research into the matter. A lot of people these days speak on pure emotion without doing the groundwork, which makes you a rare exception.

Philosophy is a noble path of study and I think society does not utilise this area as much as it should.

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[info]skzbrust
2007-03-26 02:51 am UTC (link)
Um. I have no idea whose post I was referring to; I didn't notice the names. But no apology is needed; it gave me the excuse to vent. Seriously. It was not a matter of offense at all, it was a matter of wanting to make a point.

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(no subject) - [info]schmwarf, 2007-03-27 12:22 pm UTC

[info]coffeeem
2007-03-26 02:09 am UTC (link)
Have you read Sophie's World? I liked it.

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[info]skzbrust
2007-03-26 02:52 am UTC (link)
I'll put it on the list. Thanks.

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(no subject) - [info]darthparadox, 2007-03-26 06:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mambolica, 2007-03-26 10:14 am UTC

[info]emeraldblack
2007-03-26 02:16 am UTC (link)
My philosophy professor in CEGEP had our class scheduled at noon in order that our tiny class (7 students) be able to go next door to the Brasserie and have a pitcher of beer and lunch as an integral part of the class. He reasoned that, as many philosophers arrived at their conclusions and/or enjoyed discussing their merits in such convivial circumstances, so should we. As a result all the philosophy students (myself included) became imminently "cool" and number of fellow students decided upon a philosophy major. That man was an absolute genius.

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[info]skzbrust
2007-03-26 02:53 am UTC (link)
Now THAT's thinking! Reminds me a bit of 4th Street.

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Goddammit!
[info]popefelix
2007-03-26 02:17 am UTC (link)
I reserve the right to be smug about anything! ;)

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Re: Goddammit!
[info]popefelix
2007-03-26 02:17 am UTC (link)
And what's more, I'm smug about that.

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[info]lollardfish
2007-03-26 02:19 am UTC (link)
Well, when people find out that I am a medieval history professor I sometimes get a "why do you do that?" question. I tend to simply mention the origins of Western Civilization and the Crusades and such to make them go away.

But in fact, I believe that the serious and detailed study of just about anything is a worthwhile way to spend a day, a week, a year, or a lifetime. Mine is medieval Venice and the eastern Mediterranean.

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[info]thinkmonkey
2007-03-26 02:30 am UTC (link)
My answer to the question of why I study philosophy is always the same, and always delivered with dead serious gravity:

"I'm in it for the money and the chicks."

Mostly I get strange looks or laughter in response. Occasionally someone with an especially quick wit will respond with "How's that working out for ya?" or something to that effect. Naturally, I have an answer for that, too.

"About as well as you'd expect."

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(no subject) - [info]lollardfish, 2007-03-26 03:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]touchstone, 2007-03-26 04:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dogofthefuture, 2007-03-26 08:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]andrewfeland, 2007-03-26 11:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lollardfish, 2007-03-26 12:01 pm UTC

[info]unixronin
2007-03-26 02:21 am UTC (link)
I personally am not convinced that not having studied (or even not formally studied) philosophy means that you are necessarily unaware of your methods and assumptions. Why should one not be able to independently analyze one's own reasoning and come up with sound methods for doing it and for at least having good confidence that your assumptions are sound?

After all, Plato never had the opportunity to read Plato, and Aristotle couldn't very well study Aristotle. There were no texts on Hegelian thought until Hegel came along. And as for Wittgenstein ... well, we all know Wittgenstein was a beery swine, more often sloshed than sober.

...Ahem. Sorry about that. Where was I?

Anyway, I figure enough people down the ages have independently come up with sound foundations for their own reasoning that I don't think it's precluded to do so now. (Which is not to deny that there have been plenty of idiots and outright asshats too, and continue to be.) I don't see why it should be necessary to have studied other people's logical and philosophical frameworks in order to be aware of, and understand, your own.



Socrates himself is particularly missed ...
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed.

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[info]skzbrust
2007-03-26 03:03 am UTC (link)
Plato studied Socrates. Aristotle studied Plato. Hegal studied Aristotle and everyone else. There is no branch of human thought or endeavor that one can claim to understand without building on the work of those who have gone before. The notion that philosophy is an exception to this is, in fact, a particular philosophy--one that contends that human thought is somehow special, set apart from the material world and unconnected to it. It is one I disagree with.

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(no subject) - [info]tfbretz, 2007-03-26 03:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]skzbrust, 2007-03-26 03:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]touchstone, 2007-03-26 04:10 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]unixronin, 2007-03-26 11:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lollardfish, 2007-03-26 12:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]willshetterly, 2007-03-26 05:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lollardfish, 2007-03-26 12:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]willshetterly, 2007-03-26 12:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]skzbrust, 2007-03-26 02:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]willshetterly, 2007-03-26 03:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lollardfish, 2007-03-27 12:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lollardfish, 2007-03-26 03:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]willshetterly, 2007-03-26 03:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lollardfish, 2007-03-26 03:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]willshetterly, 2007-03-26 04:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lollardfish, 2007-03-26 05:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]willshetterly, 2007-03-26 06:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lollardfish, 2007-03-26 06:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]willshetterly, 2007-03-26 07:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lollardfish, 2007-03-26 08:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]skzbrust, 2007-03-27 03:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]willshetterly, 2007-03-27 03:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]skzbrust, 2007-03-28 01:29 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lollardfish, 2007-03-27 12:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]willshetterly, 2007-03-29 06:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]schmwarf, 2007-03-27 12:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lollardfish, 2007-03-27 02:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]schmwarf, 2007-03-28 02:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lollardfish, 2007-03-28 02:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]unixronin, 2007-03-26 11:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]skzbrust, 2007-03-26 04:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mamajenzie, 2007-03-26 03:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]docstrange, 2007-03-26 04:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mamajenzie, 2007-03-26 05:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]starwed, 2007-03-26 04:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mamajenzie, 2007-03-26 05:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]unixronin, 2007-03-26 12:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mamajenzie, 2007-03-26 10:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]unixronin, 2007-03-26 10:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]unixronin, 2007-03-26 11:56 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]skzbrust, 2007-03-26 04:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]unixronin, 2007-03-26 06:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mattador, 2007-03-26 05:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]unixronin, 2007-03-26 06:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mamajenzie, 2007-03-26 11:37 pm UTC
Clever, however... - [info]silversaff, 2007-03-26 05:29 am UTC
Re: Clever, however... - [info]unixronin, 2007-03-26 12:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpxbrex, 2007-03-26 06:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]skzbrust, 2007-03-26 07:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpxbrex, 2007-03-26 08:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rathgar, 2007-03-26 11:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpxbrex, 2007-03-26 05:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]unixronin, 2007-03-26 12:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]skzbrust, 2007-03-26 03:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]unixronin, 2007-03-26 03:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]fitzthetoad, 2007-03-26 03:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpxbrex, 2007-03-26 05:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpxbrex, 2007-03-26 05:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cumbernotathome, 2007-03-28 03:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]skzbrust, 2007-03-29 03:02 pm UTC

[info]thinkmonkey
2007-03-26 02:24 am UTC (link)
As a fan of your fiction, I was already delighted when someone pointed me to your LJ the other day. (A friend sent me a link to the philosophy joke post, as it happens.) And now you've made my week! This post is as fine and clear a validation of my humble profession as any I've read.

Seriously. Thanks.

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[info]aisb23
2007-03-26 02:50 pm UTC (link)
As the aforementioned friend I need to point out that he is also a PhD student in philosophy and therefore not an unbiased opinion.

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[info]sinboy
2007-03-26 02:38 am UTC (link)
What I know about philosophy (which is a lot more than most, but not a huge amount) allows me to know how the ideology of the movers and the shakers in the world work.

Admitedly, I can't do much from where I sit, but knowing how things work is important to me making informed decisions.

PS. Also reminded of Vlad, and his confrontation with someone who knew his way around philosphy.

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[info]sgarvey
2007-03-26 04:11 am UTC (link)
The amusing/depressing part of modern life is that if you do not study philosophy, you will simply absorb the one around you. Stephen's comments about that not standing up to questioning are particularly true in todays society.

We have a country with a society based on traditional philosophy while it embraces concepts in modern philosophy. This basically means most people are living in a house while gleefully knocking out the foundations. It is one thing to speak to a Hegelian or Dialectical Materialist, it is another thing to deal with a Thomist or Aristotelean; dealing with with someone that wanders back and forth is migraine inducing.

People seem to resist leaving the house even if they think it is not founded on the truth. They also refuse to rebuild the foundation by rejecting the new ideas. The first assumptions you make in epistemology (assuming you believe such are possible)will direct your thoughts for your entire life. Everybody may not need to study this, but at least they should know it's there!

Steven, Thanks for the books and your blog. I went to a catholic university in the most bohemian part of Houston. That is almost instant grounds for some very "lively" discussions...it has been fifteen years and they are about the only part of my education that get a daily workout.

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[info]lignota
2007-04-08 03:11 pm UTC (link)
Huh. That gives me a whole new way to look at Brokedown Palace. (Which may or may not hold up, but I think I'll have fun trying.) :-)

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[info]kaninz
2007-03-26 04:13 am UTC (link)
Study for the sake of a grade is wasting ones time. Study to embrace a new concept or *gasp* LEARN something is quite laudable. Embracing ones state of ignorance...or even worse, priding oneself upon it...that just gives me a damned rash.

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[info]dr_strych9
2007-03-26 04:31 am UTC (link)
Nicely said, sir.

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[info]ccord
2007-03-26 05:01 am UTC (link)
In my post last week in which I was joking about philosophy, there were a couple replies that reflected the too-common attitude that anyone who studies this stuff is wasting his time.

In my particular University, we've found a solution to this problem through the establishment of a circular pecking order: The engineers look down on the philosophy students, the philosophy students look down on on the political philosophers, the political philosophers make fun of the sociologists, and the sociologists beat-up the engineers for lunch money - it's a microcosm of the circle of life and trickle-down economics all at once! ^_^

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[info]mambolica
2007-03-26 10:20 am UTC (link)
And the art history student has to eat lunch alone in a corner.

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(no subject) - [info]ccord, 2007-03-26 04:31 pm UTC

[info]talesya
2007-03-26 05:07 am UTC (link)
I think It's symptomatic of how disjointed our society is getting to be. More and more people today only hang out with others who like the same food, drinks, drugs and entertainment as themselves; since they're not exposed to a constant stream of new experiences, ideas or people they simply think of themselves as "normal" and anything they're not interested in is worthless in their eyes.

Most people seem to lack the empathy to accept others can be interested in things they personally find boring. A growing number of people are almost pathologically egotistical, considering themselves and whatever they do to be "right" and anything else to be "wrong" - or boring or stupid or otherwise worthless - and because they've elevated themselves to the supreme position of authority in their own view, they really do think they're morally superior; they don't recognize their likes and dislikes as being choices so much as how thing must be.

I'm not fond of those people.

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[info]cpxbrex
2007-03-26 06:02 am UTC (link)
This created an assload of comments nigh instantly. ;)

My education is in epistemology and history of science. I find the attitude that people have towards the subject bizarre, to say the least. Philosophy has, pretty clearly, been one of the most productive fields of human endeavor, and is still very productive in many ways. It has produced the early essential works in virtually every field of human activity from politics to mathematics, biology to art.

I'm a big fan of teaching history, language and philosophy. I feel many of the problems we have with society is because people in power can lie to us and we believe them because, too often, people don't have any knowledge of the historical context in which things happen, they don't understand the rhetorical tricks that are employed against them, and they don't understand what makes an argument good or bad.

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[info]illidanstr
2007-03-26 06:15 am UTC (link)
Can someone explain to me the way I envision the world, then? I eagerly await :D

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[info]imathers
2007-03-26 06:26 am UTC (link)
As a long term fan and someone currently writing their thesis for an MA in Philosophy: Thank you.

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[info]imathers
2007-03-26 06:28 am UTC (link)
Also, I didn't think at all before choosing my icon for that post, so just in case anyone wonders: No, I'm not an Objectivist. I love the Question despite Ditko's Randian lunacy, not because of it.

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[info]dogofthefuture
2007-03-26 08:43 am UTC (link)
As someone else said, uh, yesterday, I hope it wasn't me who spurred your response to this post. If it was, I assure you that it was not my intention to disparage philosophy.

Well, except for Objectivist philosophy. I'm happy to disparage that crap any ol' day. Don't ask why unless you want a seven-page discourse on the stupidity of elevating your own personal thoughts to the standard of truth and... see, you can pretty easily get me going on Objectivists. Anyway.

I do think philosophy and epistemology are valid subjects of study. In fact, I think that every college student, at least, should be required to take a course in both.

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[info]fitzthetoad
2007-03-26 03:13 pm UTC (link)
i like pudding

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[info]angrymonkey
2007-03-26 07:43 pm UTC (link)
Hit the rock man! My B.A. just went up a notch in the world. The last time was when I discovered the Philospher's Drinking song. We need more Pro -Phi PR! lol...

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[info]pennst1992
2007-03-28 01:13 am UTC (link)
I'm not sure where your post is coming from - one of the things i admire about you as a writer is your ability to be provocative - i've told you before, steven, you've always made me stop and think, even when i disagree with your assumptions.

so if your post here was directed at me vis a vis my chicken fried rice comment, i hoped you would take that in the tongue in cheek way that it was meant...as a guy who studied liberal arts (at an admittedly weak liberal arts school - but they have a pretty good football program which was always fun, bourgeous as that sounds) I have an appreciation for subjects that make me think, help me to define my parameters, etc. (I was gonna put et. al. but i'm not sure what al has to do with anything anyway).

of course, this post may be pure imagination on my part, and indicative of a REALLY guilty conscience...i hope that my comment at the end of that thread wasn't what drove your initial response on this one...(now I get to go back through 104 responses to figure out if this reply was premature - I love this site!!!).

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Philosophy
[info]maelfactor
2007-03-29 02:35 pm UTC (link)
I have to admit I never saw what I was missing but not studying philosophy. But after taking a class in it to secure an "easy semester" I was pleasantly surprise to find the ideas of Satre and Camus among others and to realize that my views weren't as out there as I had thought; others had got there before me.

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[info]john_wells
2007-03-29 11:09 pm UTC (link)
Before I disagree with you, what do you mean by serious study? Does reading a wikipedia article count? Several articles? A semester in college? 4 semesters in college? A year with a monk in tibet? (I state the monk one with humorous rather than snide intent, and without knowing the actual grounding tibetan monks have in modern philosophy and epistemology).

Does studying related areas count? A good understanding of AI research, and attempts to create a knowledge system for a computer program to follow?

And (counting 'But.' as a paragraph) do you seriously believe paragraph 3? In my experience, most people do not have a method for analyzing data and a set of assumptions. They go with their gut, and justify the answer after they have arrived at it. (And by 'go with their gut', I mean it is quite literally below the level of conscious thought, and not susceptible of rational analysis based on the tools we have available to study human brains at this time).

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